GateKeeper Plus

I am posting the comments to that Shroud of Tourin seed I made. Anyhow, who is playing the rules according to the game?
LET YOU BE THE JUDGE.

#1: Jane Abao - Mon Apr 7, 2008 8:38 PM EDT
While we try to be critical about most things, when it comes to religious beliefs, we readily swallow them hook, line, and sinker.

#1.1: Ryan Borja - Wed Apr 9, 2008 4:04 AM EDT
Ha Ha! Imagine we are too blind to have noticed this in the Bible? Look, the writer Cecile Viscaya wrote of Eli's revelation that there was no single cloth that wrapped Christ's body --

In the verse, the napkin was wrapped about the Lord’s head. The so-called Shroud of Turin does not have a napkin with it. In the shroud, the image of the head is also seen where the image of the body is projected. But the Bible mentions that there was a napkin “about his head.” What was used to wrap the head was a different piece of cloth from what was used to wrap the body.
This is amazing!
Hey, sorry to admit this, but I use to keep a photo of the Shroud of Turin in my room. Now, I am laughing out loud here to myself. What a mad mad me to believe a big lie!

#1.2: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:13 PM EDT
Those who keep the SOT in their rooms and even in their establishments are even making a mockery of their own supposedly object of worship. Haha! I know of a food chain that uses that, much like the same when you enter Chinese restaurants and you see fat Buddhas and golden cats greeting you at the front door.
Abominable!

#1.3: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:24 AM EDT
You call it abominable but some would fight for it to the death.
Someone from this site followed me to Topix.net to create trouble and call me spammer. Evidently it was for this story.
And then I added the story [just posted now] he was much afraid of that I would post - the Catholic Benedict story. I posted it to see what change it would make of him. Sometimes we have to face our ghosts squarely in the eye.

#1.4: mars chatterton - Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:01 AM EDT
Here is another one for you,
the past of the pope

#1.5: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:29 PM EDT
Thanks for the link, mars.
I hope you didn't do this because I am 19 years old and you would want to pair me with your son. This is how people think nowadays. You cannot discuss things properly because they resort to looking at your grammar - or your face. Then you are wrong because they see a speck.

#1.6: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
You are 19 and have a Ph. D. Education ? How......

#1.7: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:41 PM EDT
You can't read between the lines. You don't know parody?
Somebody was 19 - and he was right because he appeared oh so good for somebody, nobody must say anything bad. And that was me. The bad comment came from me.
Let us use our thinking tools properly.

#1.8: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:43 PM EDT
You can't read between the lines
Nope..Sorry..I am only a Engineer. We deal with real facts. Clearly no brain here as you pointed out.

#1.9: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
Are you saying then that engineers don't use their brains?
Dealing with facts need much cerebral work. How come?
I have gone to Will Eifert's story and that's how I was able to see your no-brain comments there.

#1.10: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
No you said it because I cannot "read between lines" You missed my sarcastic response also.
Yes, It takes plenty of brains to go thru a MSEE program. We have to use our brains. People die if 10,000 pd Satellites fall out of the sky because we designed them wrong.

#1.11: wormwood - Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:36 AM EDT
Thanks be to God because He allowed Brother Eliseo Soriano to listen and learn from Him. With this, it is obvious that Brother Eliseo Soriano knows Jesus Christ and cannot be fooled by the works of the devil (the Shroud of Torin). We can be sure now that Brother Eliseo Soriano does not rely on his own understanding but he got wisdom from God; therefore, he understand and that is what he reads to us.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

#1.12: mars chatterton - Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:51 AM EDT
The bible is the work of Lucifer

#1.13: Jane Abao - Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
mars chatterton,
I don't think you mean that.

#1.14: mars chatterton - Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
well the devil is the greatest deceiver or in my opinion time travel is a possibility in the near future and a guy named jesus goes back in time with the prophecies of "god" . the bible is a warning which we have the power to change the future not waiting for some god to be our saviour

#1.15: mars chatterton - Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
I mean if you went back in time how would you describe a mushroom cloud or a helicopter to the natives of lets say 1AD.
Plus if "god" has been prophesied to defeat the antichrist and put all of us through a world war...but he loves you! yeah right,
I think i can feel a book in my head. you'll be the one of the first to read it when i finish it

#1.16: Jane Abao - Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
What kind of book?
On defeating the antichrist?
Go ahead!

#1.17: mars chatterton - Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:57 AM EDT
I would like to tell you what but you never who might steal my idea lol

#1.18: Scott Isaacs - Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:36 AM EDTDeleted

#1.19: ffeineandsugar - Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:39 PM EDT
Lets keep the brickbats down, kiddies. The tone here seems pretty viscious, as Scott said.
While the Church is on the fence on a lot of relics that the faithful accept more willingly, I'm not sure what the official position is on the shroud. If you want one that is a much easier target, look at the Infant of Prague. I don't know how that one ever got to be so venerated.

#1.20: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:20 PM EDT
ffeineandsugar,
Infant of Prague? We don't need to go further than that.
We have ladies in every place that are also venerated.
But they say she is one and the same person.
So how come the name changes all the time?
The game is the same.
Venerate inanimate objects.

#1.21: Scott Isaacs - Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:00 AM EDT
Hey Jane, care to explain to me how EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY COMMENTS got DELETED? Thanks.

#1.22: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:47 AM EDT
Not all.
Check on those remaining and you will understand why.
Come up to a higher level and keep on topic.
Let the discussions move on instead of going backward.

#2: Ryan Borja - Mon Apr 7, 2008 9:28 PM EDT
Well, this is definitely an interesting analysis.
But you know, it is sometimes hard to really talk to these believers about this hard truth as they would dismiss you as crazy or insulting their belief. You are right, when it comes to religious beliefs, we sometimes turn a blind eye to what is really true.
It really pays to have an open mind and willing heart to be corrected that the truth will set us free.
You know my belief is that slow by slow with these truths coming out, there is hope in the air that somehow few others will be enlightened and soon think.

#2.1: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 8, 2008 8:47 AM EDT
Right! The man who debunked the truth of all these is the one referred to as PHENOMENAL PREACHER. He is not called MOST SENSIBLE PREACHER OF OUR TIME for nothing.
Yes, he is also the one referred to as the THE MOST QUERIED MAN ON EARTH TODAY.
He owns the program, ASK BRO. ELI.
I can just imagine now that those making [monkey] business out of that so-called Shroud of Tourin would want him out of the way. But that is nothing new to him.
For more than 40 years, that was his work - to expose falsities and save the people from being fooled. And for that, he has reaped many enemies.

#2.2: Ryan Borja - Wed Apr 9, 2008 3:56 AM EDT
After reading this post, I google him and guess what I found out? He is sensible indeed! From the way he answers and give an almost effortless reply to one of the most celebrated and controversial authors today, Richard Dawkins, the man who wrote the God Delusion book. Here is the link to that video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=183EZnNxfZo
Soriano's reply is deceptively simple, but on deeper introspection, it was very unlike Dawkins' whistle and blow kind of answer.

#2.3: Ryan Borja - Wed Apr 9, 2008 4:07 AM EDT
"For more than 40 years, that was his work - to expose falsities and save the people from being fooled. And for that, he has reaped many enemies."
Enemies? Come on, he should instead win more friends. That's public service already, to bail people from the deep sea of foolishness.

#2.4: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 9, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
Don't many people dislike truth? That's what I mean. Wait till you see how Soriano speaks. He doesn't spare any - as long as it is truth he deals with. Isn't this why they file libel charges against him?
The way I look at it, he is one hell of a guy quite calibrated. While he can love like a saint, he doesn't hesitate to hate what is evil. Before I learned about him, I thought being a saint was loving everything and everybody no matter what. I didn't know there is something to hate and that is evil. His life quite exemplifies that.
Google for more. Look into Youtube. He is all over especially in the realm of asking and answering questions. This is the most exciting part about him.

#2.5: AndreiBonete - Wed Apr 9, 2008 11:37 AM EDT
Hmm... did you mean calibrated to the superlative degree? I agree to that. His concern to the welfare of the brethren is incomparable. Not only that, unlike other religious leaders who are lenient to the evil being done by their members, Bro. Eli tells you that you're wrong right in the face. It hurts but hey, he's very concerned of your salvation. If you go overboard, you're going to get it.

#2.6: jois - Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:25 AM EDT
For more than 40 years, that was his work - to expose falsities and save the people from being fooled. And for that, he has reaped many enemies.
It is the same fate that happens to King David, one of God's servants, as stated in the Old Testament. His love and concern to people brought him more enemies than friends. In Psalms 109: 4-5 it says,
"For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love."

#2.7: Scott Isaacs - Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:37 AM EDT
Jesus' body was wrapped in linen. What is this silliness about a "napkin"?

#2.8: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:18 PM EDT
It was a piece of cloth that wrapped the head, different from the one that wrapped the body.
Therefore, there was not just only one piece of cloth.
Unlike what the shroud of turin would like to point out.

#2.9: MightyMait - Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
It was a piece of cloth that wrapped the head, different from the one that wrapped the body.
Therefore, there was not just only one piece of cloth.
Unlike what the shroud of turin would like to point out.
Has anybody considered that there might have been a number of cloths? Perhaps there was one covering the body, a "napkin" covering the face, and then the Shroud covering all of them?
Isn't a small-minded, literal reading of the Bible a dangerous thing to do?

#2.10: prompt - Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:19 PM EDT
That would be the Sudarium of Oviedo which some connections with the Shroud, and would have been placed across the head as the napkin.

#2.11: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:23 PM EDT
Thanks for the info, prompt.

#3: Ryan Borja - Mon Apr 7, 2008 9:32 PM EDT
Hey, this is one for the books and among the most intelligent analyses around about the Shroud of Turin.
One point though that was missing is the crass commercialism this faux belief has espoused several generations now. Just imagine how many hundreds or millions of dollars this laughable spectacle has floated the cash registry of the little big city of the Catholic Empire.
That man Eliseo is easily one of the most intelligent man living today yet hard to accept as others would claim was never university educated. But if one would only listen and forget about his academic credentials, one would think otherwise. He is truly a sensible religious sage of our times.

#3.1: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 8, 2008 9:09 AM EDT
Ah, if he were university-educated, that wouldn’t be right. He would have imbibed the same paradigm that university-bred students have been subjected to. He would also have his mind full of facts and figures that the world thought was fit and proper for learners to memorize in order to be called educated.
Right now, I like his attitude of never taking anything for granted. He tends to question things and be critical of anything until proven true. And I find it amusing now that he has exposed so many falsities.

#3.2: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:17 PM EDT
That is why I referred to Bro. Soriano and his Biblical insight in disproving the SOT. Only the INTELLIGENT knows HOW TO IRON OUT RELIGIOUS ISSUES, like this one about the Shroud

#4: noel-264501 - Mon Apr 7, 2008 11:39 PM EDT
Some people accept things easily as they are (even without basis), some doubted but do not care. some just follow what other people do...i'm for the one who stand up to say that "the shroud of Turin is a fraud" because he base his study in the bible.

#4.1: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 8, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
I think you know why - 1) Some people accept things easily as they are (even without basis), 2) Some doubt but do not care, and 3) Some just follow what other people do.
It is because there is no discipline required in there and they follow whatever is easier to do or accept - no responsibility at all. However, they mistake that as equally having no accountability required of them.
Those making business out of that so-called shroud have much to answer! And those patronizing that business? I wonder if in their ignorance they were also led to believe what they wanted to believe.

#5: chrisanne gonzales - Tue Apr 8, 2008 12:35 AM EDT
It is high time that Catholic devout should re-examine their beliefs. The shroud of turin is just one of a many lies created by their church. I used to be one of those Catholics who never questioned the origin or the truth behind this kind of belief. But when I heard Bro. Eliseo Soriano speaks about it, I was almost laughing at myself for being so ignorant before.
This is an eye-opener for them but they must have an open mind so they may understand the truth behind this kind of traditional beliefs. They should not rely on believing things that are being fed to them rather examine it, analyze it and most especially it must conform to the bible.

#5.1: Robert Clarita - Tue Apr 8, 2008 9:20 AM EDT
Yes. You are not the only one.

#5.2: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:23 PM EDT
I hope the priests are open-minded, not BUSINESS MINDED.

#5.3: youngfaithful - Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:56 PM EDT
Hmm, all this talk about having an open mind makes me wonder who's mind really needs opening?
It's too easy to just say the Shroud is a hoax without really understanding the reasoning behind it. Whether you believe the shroad really was the cloth Jesus was wrapped in is irrelevant. What does matter, is that it allows people to engage in conversation about Catholicism and about Jesus Christ. It is merely a tool to encourage the believers and non-believers to discover more about the Catholic faith.

#5.4: Jane Abao - Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:59 PM EDT
Right you are. Discovering more about the Catholic faith is inevitable in this topic. You cannot talk about the shroud and not touch the nerves of catholics, even without mentioning this religion. But let us not digress and be discussing about catholicism per se. The shroud is the topic.

#7: eths - Tue Apr 8, 2008 7:16 AM EDT
Very nice point by Bro. Eli!
That can be read in the Book of John 20:6-7
"Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." -KJV
I hope that the Roman Catholics will believe in the Bible more than this hoax.

#7.1: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 9, 2008 9:53 AM EDT
The way Mr. Soriano expresses it, I find it funny that the best lawyers of the land, those schooled in the best universities, the brightest of the professors, and all that are looked upon as the alta sociedad - they are all in this group catering to this so-called shroud.
Why can't they tell truth from fancy? I guess there really are people meant for such beliefs.

#8: wormwood - Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:35 PM EDT
Deuteronomy 4:15
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully,
Catholicism has another hoax to feast on that make people bow down and worship another idol. They always do what is right for themselves but not right in the sight of God!
Leviticus 26:1
" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 26:30
I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.
Deuteronomy 4:15
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are. 21 The LORD was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance. 22 I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. 23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

#8.1: Jane Abao - Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:41 AM EDT
You said: Catholicism has another hoax to feast on that make people bow down and worship another idol. They always do what is right for themselves but not right in the sight of God!
Right! And they keep looking for things to be venerated - cement, wood, stone.
And now, cloth!
But at the same time earn from it.

#8.2: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:37 PM EDT
Let us not be surprised if undergarments will also be worshipped. I also heard Bro. Soriano say something about that in one of his expositions. And surprisingly, it's not surprising. People of long ago even worshipped sunshine.

#8.3: finalcut - Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:23 AM EDT
Is this the "Pick on the Catholics" thread?
Idolatry:
# religious zeal; the willingness to serve God
# the worship of idols; the worship of images that are not God
Catholics are only practicing Idolatry with the Shroud if the image on it is truly not that of Jesus. Since we don't know and the Catholics believe it is an image of Jesus - and becuase Jesus serves as one of three forms of God then they aren't really doing anything wrong.
By worshiping God at all they are simply practicing their faith that God exists. Likewise, by treating the Shroud as a sacred artifact they are simply practicing their faith that the cloth was God's and has been stained with his image.
If you are going to mock their faith in regards to the Shroud then you must also mock their faith in God. There is no proof that the Shroud wasn't Jesus burial cloth and there is no proof there is no God. Just as there is no proof that the Shroud was his cloth and there is no proof there is a God.
We don't know how the image got on the Shroud. Let's pretend that it was someones burial cloth and that the someone had a napkin on their head. Again, we don't know where the pattern came from on the Shroud. And if someone were buried in it for three days then it probably wouldn't normally have any kind of human pattern on it. However, if the person buried were truly divine then it seems to me they could leave a pattern on the cloth however they wanted too - even if there was a napkin in the way; if the Shroud is authentic then I doubt we're seeing 2000 year old sweat stains but rather something a bit more substantial.
FWIW: I am not a Catholic (or a Christian for that matter) however, the article does nothing to prove that the Shroud is not real. It just speculates and does a rather poor job of doing so considering the supposed source of the Shroud. We are talking about a supposed Omnipotent God after all.

#8.4: Brad Leclerc - Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:42 AM EDT
the article does nothing to prove that the Shroud is not real. It just speculates and does a rather poor job of doing so
Would you prefer a fully cited article out of Nature Magazine? Not much speculation or vagueness there...

#8.5: finalcut - Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
Yes Brad (even though I'm familiar with that article as well) This article, however, just doesn't have much merit. It seems as nothing more than an opportunity to bash Catholics.
Had the Nature Magazine article been seeded instead, and the response of various people who commented not be to denigrate Catholics, then it would be much more useful to the vine in general.

#8.6: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:22 PM EDT
finalcut says -
We are talking about a supposed Omnipotent God after all.
Wrong! There are things God cannot do. For example, He cannot lie - because that is His nature.
Why do you insist in connecting God with this hoax?

#8.7: Scott Isaacs - Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:41 AM EDTRestored
Sure he can lie. He told Abraham he wanted him to sacrifice Isaac to test him. That was clearly a lie.

#8.8: AndreiBonete - Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:40 AM EDT
I agree to the statement that God cannot lie. There are two verses that support this one. Read it if you like: Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18. How could someone even say that God can lie!? Even Catholics believe that doctrine.

#8.9: ffeineandsugar - Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:32 AM EDT
EVEN Catholics? Ahem. Color me offended!

#8.10: Scott Isaacs - Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:22 PM EDT
Andrei:
And the comment I highlighted from God?

#8.11: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:39 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs Restored
Sure he can lie. He told Abraham he wanted him to sacrifice Isaac to test him. That was clearly a lie.
>>>>>> Sorry, but this is off topic!
It has nothing to do with the shroud of turin.
It is a tactic to digress from the topic.
I have explained my side to Emily but this restoration came ahead.
I thought we do moderating here fair and square.
I had deleted Scott Isaacs's comment so we could give justice to the topic.

#8.12: Scott Isaacs - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:12 AM EDT
You're the one who said he can't lie Jane. I was responding to you.

#8.13: An Drakes - Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:29 AM EDTDeleted

#8.14: Scott Isaacs - Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:02 PM EDT
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

#8.15: Jane Abao - Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:50 PM EDT
Scott Isaacs,
You are off topic.
THE FORUM IS CLOSED.

#8.16: Scott Isaacs - Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:55 PM EDT
How am I off topic?
And if the forum is closed, you should edit the story and uncheck the box for "Allow Comments."

#8.17: MightyMait - Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:57 PM EDT
God can't lie, eh?
So, we get to put limits on God now? That's a strange conception of God.
There are some conundrums that have been presented in the past like:
Can God make a stone that He can't lift?
The inconceivable answer is: yes, He can, but He can lift it if He wants to.
If God is infinite and we are finite, then there's no way that God can reveal Himself to us.
The inconceivable answer is: if God *cannot* reveal Himself to us, then he is not infinite, so, yes, the infinite can reveal itself to the finite.
So, God cannot lie, but, then again, He can.

#9: Robert Clarita - Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:05 AM EDT
Hey, why is the article being diverted to an MSN ads?
I was also seeding a news link but its also being directed to the same windows ad.

#9.1: Tedd Riggs - Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:49 AM EDT
Interesting all these comments from reading a Microsoft Windows Vista ad ?

#9.2: Jane Abao - Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:58 AM EDT
Sorry for the glitch.
They've read it first here -
http://2-2edgedsword.blogspot.com/2008/03/shroud-of-turin-unwrapped.html

#9.3: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:18 PM EDT
Emily has emailed me finally. Thanks.
I think she's going to place the correct URL in READ ARTICLE.

#10: Jane Abao - Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:14 AM EDT
There's been a glitch somewhere when you click on to READ ARTICLE.
The article for this can be found here in DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD.
http://2-2edgedsword.blogspot.com/2008/03/shroud-of-turin-unwrapped.html

#11: jois - Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:47 AM EDT
Many Catholics may retort to this, but I guess they should not, because someone, in the person of Bro. Eli has been brave enough to expose the truth. We should not be blind followers, who sticks to traditions and false beliefs, but instead we should leave behind fallacies that have make a fool out of us for a long time. May the people realize it and how Bro. Eli show his great concern to the people.

#11.1: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:21 PM EDTDeleted

#11.2: Will Eifert - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:19 AM EDT
What I find interesting about this is that as soon as this has been revealed, suddenly everyone has a new generalization for Catholics, "Hey look, now they worship pieces of cloth!" Look, I'm a Catholic and I don't need material evidence to follow my faith, and I'm sure there a lot out there like me. I don't have to prove to you that what I believe is real, and the fact that so many are anxious to try to use this as a weapon against Catholicism is, frankly, amusing. If you need to have physical evidence to prove the reality of something, then your life must be rather gloomy.

#11.3: finalcut - Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:26 AM EDT
Will,
I generally prefer some physical evidence but my life isn't gloomy at all; it's actually pretty darn bright and cheery. I couldn't be happier.
Of course, I don't have a grudge against Catholics either and I don't really see that this article has an validity at all considering they are trying to disprove the divinity of a piece of cloth by using reasoning that fails to take into consideration the "super-natural" aspects of a supposed Jesus and his burial cloth.

#11.4: wormwood - Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
Water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Is it because every water droplets becomes something else other than sweet?
For whom I direct this adage to?
People get insulted even if something said to them is true. Some people doesn't really want to hear nor ace things that hurts them. So, we can read here their defense mechanism, that is, the call for technicalities and diversionary tactics.
How can we move forward when we are still delving in the stage of denial, motivated by pride and self righteousness?
Where is the "What is?" and the "realistic thinking" on this so called rational people?
What should have been a step taken in moving forward, obviously, becomes a banana peeling left on the ground for some people to step on over and over again to knock their head and back off. And as expected, that same banana skin is someone else's pride, self righteousness, and denial.
Is it really proper to worship garments? Who says that it is proper, or even important? Who is that person who says so? Where did he base his understanding other than the Holy Bible? But since Catholic Priests based their understanding on what the Catholic Church says, they became inconsistent biblical speaking.

#11.5: mars chatterton - Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
Isnt the catholic church the whore in revelations?

#11.6: Jane Abao - Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:31 PM EDT
Would you like someone to answer this? One unbeatable when it comes to biblical matters?
We can request him for you.

#11.7: mars chatterton - Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:44 AM EDT
Would you like someone to answer this? One unbeatable when it comes to biblical matters?
We can request him for you.
Yes Jane, that would be excellent. thanx

#11.8: Jane Abao - Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:43 AM EDT
mars chatterton,
Message replied to. Check your inbox.

#11.9: mars chatterton - Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
Thanx jane

#12: jois - Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
Although Catholics claim that they use the Bible as their basis, the article proves otherwise. The revelation by Bro. Eli shows one of their beliefs that contradicts the Bible and that they tend to be fanatics and blind followers of teachings imposed by their leaders.

#12.1: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:36 PM EDT
I think the fanaticism is a result of tending to follow one's own ways. They prefer to do what suits them, therefore they are given up to following equally the blind ways of the world.

#12.2: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:30 PM EDT
Oh, no. The priests would just let the dust and the mites eat away their large Bibles. I bet they have a large collection of Bibles with all their translations in their libraries. But I also believe that they have not even scratched the surfaces of those.

#13: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:09 PM EDTDeleted

#14: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:19 PM EDT
Bro. Eli Soriano is today's whistle blower of religious issues. No doubt.

#14.1: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:56 AM EDT
I find it also very amazing at just how many time "Bro' Bro. Eli Soriano and his "connections" always lead right back to most all of the people on this article or to links to his church http://www.angdatingdaan.org/ and its many Philippine Blogs.
To be more realistic, this is looking more like a outlet for information on Phillipine backed Blog writers from "Bros" church. And again, getting far to close to a UA and COH violation as there are just way to many common commenters on all of these threads.

#14.2: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:05 AM EDT
If you look at it that way, we can't blame you.
Have you ever tried fighting for truth or an ideal -bigger than just material things?
These people work by faith - not salaried, not paid, nothing. No strings attached.
Therefore, what motive would you impute on them?
Is there a law against commenting?

#14.3: Red Wolf - Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:47 AM EDT
There is, however, a user agreement you agreed to when you joined Newsvine and advertising is not welcomed here. It doesn't matter if you're a volunteer, it's still classed as advertising.

#14.4: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:12 AM EDT
What is being advertised here, Red Wolf?

#14.5: Robert Clarita - Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:16 AM EDT
Advertising?
Uhm . . . can you refer to us what is being advertised in the article? Any label of products or company being endorsed?

#14.6: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:20 AM EDT
Is there a law against commenting?
No. But there are in place a COH and User agreements from direct linking to your many websites and numerous blogs.
Call it what it want. Commenting, advertising, advise. It all starts in the same place and ends in the same place.

#14.7: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
Tedd Riggs,
direct linking to your many websites and numerous blogs.
Whose many websites and numerous blogs? Be specific.
Robert and I were asking Red wolf and you answered instead.

#14.8: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:41 PM EDT
Sorry. I don't do games or relist your blogs for you, the list was sent to Emily. She can email it to you if you forgot your own list of blogs that you maintain. They are pretty easy to find.
But I am not going to violate a COH by reposting those. Neither is Red Wolf.

#14.9: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:46 PM EDT
Tedd Riggs,
"You?" Who is you? You can be singular. It can be plural.

#14.10: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
She can email it to you
It was clear I was responding to comment 14.7. That comment was yours.
I had grammar 101. About 30 yrs ago. Still has not changed.

#15: lauhal - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:22 PM EDT
A quick reminder:
You may want to review the ToS for Newsvine and the User Agreement, in particular:
Prohibited Conduct
The following non-exhaustive list describes the kinds of illegal or harmful conduct that are prohibited on our Site. You agree not to:
* attempt to disguise the origin of any User Content transmitted to the Site.
Hope that you enjoy Newsvine, if you have any questions or concerns, let me know.

#15.1: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:21 AM EDT
* attempt to disguise the origin of any User Content transmitted to the Site.
I don't get you, lauhal.
What did we attempt to do?

#15.2: Brad Leclerc - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 AM EDT
Seems your seed is linking to some Microsoft store....

#15.3: Tedd Riggs - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:30 AM EDT
Warhammer 40,000: Dawn Of War - Soulstorm On Sale !
Over priced Store... :-)

#15.4: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:33 AM EDT
Yes, there was a glitch.
I only found out much later.
How can I have this corrected?

#15.5: Brad Leclerc - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:56 AM EDT
I think ya have to delete the seed and re-seed it....sadly I don't think you can change the seeded address after the fact (probably to avoid the reverse of this problem where people could switch a seed to an ad or something after it's getting traffic).....maybe Calvin or Emily could help though...not sure.
#15.6: Tedd Riggs - Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:04 AM EDT
Thats correct. A article you can change, but a seed you cannot, The only way to "correct" it is to delete it and start all over, but since you have so many people commenting all ready, its not really worth it.
I believe Emily is already looking at it now.

#16: athena-109880 - Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:39 PM EDTDeleted

#16.1: Scott Isaacs - Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:47 AM EDTDeleted

#17: Brad Leclerc - Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:14 PM EDT
Not a HUGE surprise, given that the Shroud has been generally accepted to be a hoax since it was first dated in the late 80's. But it's nice to hear that some that still believed are changing their tune, even if it is for different reasons.

#17.1: Tedd Riggs - Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
Not a surprise to me, I still remember that study well.

#17.2: prompt - Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:00 AM EDT
No carbon dating tests that have been done are relevant to the actual age of the Shroud beyond that it had been repaired some time in the 13th to 14th centuries. It is also not a piece of art. As far as can be seen, it was a real dead body that created the imagine. Whether it is Christ or not is something that cannot be solved right now, especially when the Church will not allow new testing to be done on it.

#17.3: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:58 AM EDT
prompt said -
"The Church will not allow new testing to be done on it."
Why do you think this is so?

#17.4: prompt - Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:33 PM EDT
Personally I believe that after it was shown that the radiocarbon dating was invalid the Church decided it was time to restrict the Shroud and keep it a mystery. Right now there are so many variables that need to be worked out and only further study of the actual artifact can these things be worked out. It is actually quite amazing the amount of study that has been done just on old samples and data, resulting quite a bit of new and interesting information.
I am in the least agnostic, yet would admit that the Shroud could quite possibly be the burial clothes of the real Jesus of Nazareth. The studies are all inconclusive as to what truly happened to make those images. As long as that possibility of a religious event is open, I believe the Church will fight to keep it that way.

#17.5: wormwood - Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
Prompt,
What burial clothes are you talking about? The shroud of Turin is a single cloth, not clothes.
If one gives importance to the accounts found from the Holy Bible, the Shroud of Turin should have been officially resolved and concluded as a hoax even from the very beginning.
No need for carbon dating. Why did I say so?
1. The Shroud of Turin, the cloth itself doesn't match the accounts from the Bible that tell of "some linens" and a napkin use to wrap the face and a separate linen for the body. And how those pieces where placed on the body, the Shroud of Turin does not match.
2. What is the teaching of Jesus Christ to begin with? Would God allow to leave an image of Jesus Christ on a cloth? What was promised by Jesus Christ? He said to wait for the Holy Spirit, not the holy cloth. Did the cloth taught the Catholics of all things and has reminded them of everything Jesus Christ said to the Apostles?
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
And Jesus Christ stated that he will appear in the clouds when he returned.
Matthew 24:30
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory
With these, there is no possibility that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
The Shroud of Turin is definitely a hoax, biblical speaking.

#17.6: prompt - Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:54 PM EDT
1. The Shroud of Turin, the cloth itself doesn't match the accounts from the Bible that tell of "some linens" and a napkin use to wrap the face and a separate linen for the body. And how those pieces where placed on the body, the Shroud of Turin does not match./blockquote>
There is the Sudarium of Ovied, a cloth that was said to have been wrapped around the head of Jesus. They are fairly similar and some believe they were definitely together at one time on a body, but this is by no means conclusive. As to the Biblical accounts, there is no promise that they are completely accurate.
2. What is the teaching of Jesus Christ to begin with? Would God allow to leave an image of Jesus Christ on a cloth? What was promised by Jesus Christ? He said to wait for the Holy Spirit, not the holy cloth. Did the cloth taught the Catholics of all things and has reminded them of everything Jesus Christ said to the Apostles?
If Jesus was a man it would definitely be possible that he left his image behind on his burial clothes. You can't start by saying God couldn't have allowed such a thing to happen, because there is no evidence for such a claim.
Your arguments don't seem too solid.

#17.7: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:47 PM EDT
prompt,
Thanks for coming in.
We have barely scratched the topic.
At least you're trying your best to focus on THE SHROUD OF TURIN.

#17.8: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:21 PM EDT
wormwood said -
"Would God allow to leave an image of Jesus Christ on a cloth? What was promised by Jesus Christ? He said to wait for the Holy Spirit, not the holy cloth."
Right! If attention is placed on this cloth, then the significance of the Holy Spirit that is to be awaited on is dimmed.
Now, it is becoming visible why that cloth wants to grab attention.

#17.9: MightyMait - Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:08 PM EDT
Now, it is becoming visible why that cloth wants to grab attention.
The cloth is alive and wants things? I guess it really is a miracle!!

#17.10: ffeineandsugar - Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
Figure of speech. The whole idea is that focusing on one sign - the shroud - can limit our attention to more pressing ideas - the reality of Pentacost. However, both show us that Christ is alive among us. Now, time to get to work!

#17.11: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:06 PM EDT
Figure of speech. The whole idea is that focusing on one sign - the shroud - can limit our attention to more pressing ideas - the reality of Pentacost.
Fair enough, but *is* anybody (aside from those so single-mindedly trying to discredit it) focusing on the shroud to the exclusion of all other manifestations of God's will?

#17.12: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:18 PM EDT
I'm not sure where to put this comment since this whole thread is fairly convoluted, but:
Am I alone in seeing comic irony in Bible-worshipers (for, if you believe that the Bible is a contract that binds the will of God, then you aren't really worshiping God, are you?) using a book that was pretty much finalized by the Council of Nicea (well, checking the Wikipedia article, it appears that it *wasn't* the Council of Nicea that decided which books were to be included in the Bible and which were to be excluded; in any case, to even the most casual student of the history of the Bible, it's quite clear that what was included and excluded in the Bible was as much a factor of politics as it was Divine Inspiration) or various ecclesiastical groups (Catholic and otherwise) to discredit a Catholic relic?

#18: Jane Abao - Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:30 AM EDT
I think the appropriate term is Shroud of Tourin.
Tourin. It goes round and round the world to be venerated - at the same time earn.
It shows how many are willing to be fooled!

#19: finalcut - Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:28 AM EDT Comment collapsed by the community

#20: Robert Clarita - Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:59 PM EDT
Hey, I just remembered that this shroud of turin thingy last year had been here in the country, and occupied a space in SM (known mall in the Philippines) malls and made a profit out of the curious folks here.
Why profit?
Heck, they are charging fees for the entrance like some sort of amusement show or something. If this is really essential to the Catholic faith, why would they have to charge a fee? Why not exhibited in one of the Catholic churches in the country?
Hmmmmmm . . . . . . I smell greens out of hoax!

#20.1: Brad Leclerc - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:03 AM EDT
Heck, they are charging fees for the entrance like some sort of amusement show or something. If this is really essential to the Catholic faith, why would they have to charge a fee?
nothing quite like demoting "important religious symbol" to "replace for bearded lady" or something, is there? lol. The monetization of religion is a big much these days....cheese sandwich anyone?

#20.2: Robert Clarita - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:14 AM EDT
nothing quite like demoting "important religious symbol" to "replace for bearded lady" or something, is there? lol.
The bearded lady? That's the Christ version of Catholics that is made up of wood and cement, right? The one with long hair and has beard, that is sometimes crucified and sometimes just standing with known hand postures. But I'm sure I'm not demoting a hoax for some hoax as well.
I believe more in the bible and some works acknowledging the knowledge coming from it, than believe the "smart" rant of fanatics and some religious inventions rampant these days.

#20.3: Brad Leclerc - Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:13 AM EDT
The bearded lady? That's the Christ version of Catholics that is made up of wood and cement, right?
I was more referring to the common circus side-show :P

#20.4: Robert Clarita - Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:43 AM EDT
I was more referring to the common circus side-show :P
Ha ha. You must try and visit some time Philippines, Catholics fanatics here have many traditions that are most probably have big liking to the common circus side show. Have you seen the feast of the Black Nazarene in Quiapo? ah, that one is even creepier than a bearded lady in circus, there had been reports of deaths due to stampede along with crowd-relevant crimes at high whenever that Catholic tradition carried out annually.
Well, you don't have to go too far to see a circus, I bet you have lots there in your place. ~ Winks

#20.5: wormwood - Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:33 PM EDT
I feel the presence of the old-man-alma-mater-lover here from Cebu in a sock-puppet-troll names. I think, he can't let go of his debater-cum-fanatic way of telling people to shut up and to remain ignorant like himself!
Or, his spirit has returned: borrowed some forms of puppetry, or else 7 more evil spirits went with him with a goal to try to delapidate the "place" again after leaving for a while...like a dog chasing its tail in circles.
A fanatic, indeed! But this time, some fanatic atheists and technical support representatives/assistants/engineers, who wanted to call us "spammers". Apparently, they seemed to insinute that the rules for spamming does not apply to them.
Will Eifert, when you said: "Yes, it's different, and if it doesn't hurt you, then how do you reserve the right to insult them for it? That's my point. I don't know if you listen to Bad Religion, Jane, but one of the lines of a song written by them goes "If it's real to me do I have to prove it to you?" The answer is no. That is my objective, to tell you that just because SOMETHING is real to somebody else doesn't mean that it is wrong, and they don't have to prove it to you.",
CAN YOU NOW PLEASE EXPLAIN TO US which is that "SOMETHING" you are pointing out? I don't think that the phrase you used applies to the topic here about the Shroud of Turin. Or is it the other way around!?
You are not objective but rather you are just assuming. Let me state an objective one: "The Shroud of Turin is real to some people, and they need to prove it FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE WITH THEM!"
If they cannot prove it, what the hell are these Catholic Priests are not UNITED in their belief of THE SHROUD OF TURIN'S genuineness? What the hell are some of these Catholic Priests STILL exhibit the Shroud of Turin and let people bow down and worship it? What the hell even Catholic Popes differs in their belief AND LET PEOPLE GIVE DONATIONS TO PRESERVE IT?
Who are you kidding, WILL EIFERT? Those people who believed in the Shroud of Turin passes on their belief to their children, their kins, etc, the reason why they, including you, should feel more obliged to seek the truth and have a sense of awareness and initiative. Or else, you are just another Juan dela Cruz or Uncle Sam being run over by co-fanatic brothers. Similarly, you can become another statistic under unnecessary deaths, like that in the Philippines, who died in a stampede - whenever the "bearded lady" is being paraded around Quiapo, Manila or from the rest of the world. Or another one who drowned as you place yourself on a boat where your "bearded lady" and "GINOONG MARIA" is placed to be transferred by water.
finalcut, what do you mean by "attacking the Catholics." Was there any mention in our comments that we are attacking the Catholics, or you just don't understand that we are exposing the teachings of the Catholic as fraud and hoax!
You said that "There is no "proof" in it that the Shroud is a hoax - it is just another in a long line of different interpretations of some intentionally vague book." By saying that the Shroud of Turin that carries on it the blood stain-image of Jesus Christ, is already a hoax!
You said,"Do I believe the Shroud of Turin is really the burial cloth of Jesus? I don't care if it is. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God or that he came back from the dead so what this bit of fabric is really means nothing to me."
Is that statement a very good example of a horrible logic and a bad defense of your position?
I wonder why you have the guts to comment here when your intention is really not to care at all! Is
When you talk of Jesus Christ, the most logical thing to use is the Holy Bible because those who wrote it where verified as God's sent. Why and How? Whether some of them worshiped or bowed down to idols and other gods, or have been faithful to the God of Israel - their end and what to look forward to has been well stated. The rewards and punishment are consistently being told in connection to their deeds upto the time they where allowed by God to rest. The Holy Bible certifies the validity of a teaching and condemns the teachings of Catholicism.
We have all the right to attack the teachings of Catholicism, and not the person; more so, when Catholicism has made people worship a cloth. Their belief affects as all actually, for your information! Catholicism hurts you spiritually because people started to create their own religion, some sprouted either to strengthen Catholicism or eradicate it.
We did not make it a mission to attack the Catholic, only their teachings, for your information!
You are a good example of having a proverbial brick wall and it is you who cannot understand. You can't even understand what you firmly believe or trying to explain. Why? You actually own an ignore button, as you said. But let me give you a piece of advise, you may want to discover your "shut up" and "understand" button.
Tedd Riggs said:"By inflating comments Jane with as many blogs as you write under, you well know that increases you earnings at Newsvine, Drives the story to the Front page, keeps it their longer and gives it exposure to MSNBC which creates far more traffic hits then if only on Newsvine. Also large articles always attract more people. Basic human nature."
A fanatic, indeed! But this time, some fanatic atheists and technical support representatives/assistants/engineers, who wanted to call us "spammers". Apparently, they insinute that the rules for spamming does not apply to them and they know the rules really. They are quite advance when as far as profit is concerned. I remembered SAM JORDISON who wants to debate with Bro Eliseo Soriano, but first he needs payment. SAM JORDISON emailed Bro Eli, saying
“…Have you found a suitable time and date (about the debate)? …I’d also like to discuss payment, travel expenses and co if possible… Much better to get these things down in email so there’s no confusion than on the phone… What are your terms/ budget etc. I can’t imagine that the whole event is going to be anything less than personally humiliating from my point of view so I’d like some compensation…”

#20.6: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:31 PM EDT
They have no answers to these.
They hide behind Anti-spamming - a function which is supposed to support news reporting.
Nose for news? None.
They are more of engineers than journalists.
They cannot face the topic. That's the truth.

#20.7: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
What assurance do you have that Bro Eliseo Soriano isn't the antichrist of which the Bible speaks who comes speaking scripture?
Is it something besides your faith in him?

#21: mars chatterton - Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:39 AM EDT
Anyone knows why the pope sits on a chair with an inverted cross? See here

#21.1: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
I had always wondered about that, I thought that was a PhotoShopped image when I saw it, so I never gave it a second thought after that. Thanks for the link, that was neat to find out.

#21.2: finalcut - Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:22 AM EDT
neat link Mars - very informational. thanks

#21.3: mars chatterton - Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
no problem Tedd and final. Just wish someone knows why, looks to me like the religion is really laughing at their followers who pay them to keep wealthy. Who knows they could be satanists

#21.4: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:50 PM EDT
the religion is really laughing at their followers who pay them to keep wealthy
Right. It's big business! The victims are the innocent ones - which is why this article.

#21.5: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:06 PM EDT
What is amazing is that the thing has been found to be repaired over and over, patched here and there. Desperately wanting to survive. Look here -
It is well known and documented that the Shroud has been repaired several times in its
history, including in the area from which the C-14 sample was taken. The most recent
was in 1973 after Professor Gilbert Raes, a member of the Turin Commission that studied
the Shroud in 1969 and 1973, was given some samples. But is it possible that other
undocumented repairs were made to the Shroud? Enzo Delorenzi, also a member of the
Turin Commission, made the very significant statement:
…I should like to mention the impression I received during the course of my
examination, namely, that more pairs of hands have carried out the darning than is
suggested in the historical records (the four Clarissas of Chambery, the Blessed Valfre
and the Princess Clotilde). (Delorenzi 1976, pg. 111)
In light of the compelling evidence that we are about to present, we believe that the
theory that the Shroud has literally been patched with medieval material from the 16th
century, in the C-14 sample itself, explains the medieval carbon dating results.
Furthermore, several other sindonologists have identified various anomalies that also
seem to point to undocumented repairs (Gervasio, 1986: 264, 268), which adds credence
to the hypothesis that the C-14 sample area may have been similarly enhanced.
Giovanni Riggi, the person who actually cut the C-14 sample, which was from the
same area from which the 1973 “Raes piece” was taken, stated:
I was authorized to cut approximately 8 square centimetres of cloth from the
Shroud…This was then reduced to about 7 cm because fibres of other origins had become
mixed up with the original fabric …(Riggi 1988:182).
Italian author Giorgio Tessiore, discussing the sample taking, noted, “…1 cm of the new
sample had to be discarded because of the presence of different color threads” (Tessiore,
1988:44).

Extracts, JOSEPH G. MARINO AND M. SUE BENFORD
http://shroud.com/pdfs/marben.pdf

#21.6: wormwood - Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:53 AM EDT
Out of fire, the Lord spoke but the concerned people saw no form of any kind. But now, some people insists that the Shroud of Torin has Jesus' image. They are all ridiculous and ignorant of the Truth.
The truth is Jesus Christ came to teach of a teaching that came from God who sent him.
John 7:16
Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Jesus Christ will not leave a trace of his image too. Some of the priests in the Catholic Church obviously does not love Jesus Christ because they do not obey the commandments of Jesus Christ but rather insist of their own teachings and they behaved more wickedly by teaching false gospel.
Jeremiah 16:12
But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers. See how each of you is following the stubbornness of his evil heart instead of obeying me.
Matthew 28:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
Does that mean that Jesus Christ will show himself through a Shroud? Definitely not, Jesus even said, blessed are those who have not seen him but who believed.
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Granted without accepting that the Shroud of Torin is genuinely carrying Jesus Christ's image, then, does it mean that priests are making sure that those people who will see the said Shroud will not be blessed anymore? Otherwise, they should have kept it to themselves to give their people a chance to be called blessed.
Jesus Christ does not need his image to be exhibited everywhere, because His words are enough and it lasts, from everlasting to everlasting.
1 Peter 1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
Anyways, some people may not understand the verses because they do no want to follow the words of Jesus Christ. Some Catholics do not believe in the Holy Bible but they believe in the Shroud of Torin. I hope they will try to study the Holy Bible too.
Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
#21.7: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
Out of fire, the Lord spoke but the concerned people saw no form of any kind. But now, some people insists that the Shroud of Torin has Jesus' image. They are all ridiculous and ignorant of the Truth.
Are you saying God is formless? If so, how can we be created in His image?
Jesus Christ does not need his image to be exhibited everywhere, because His words are enough and it lasts, from everlasting to everlasting.
Jesus Christ doesn't need *anything*, does He? It is we, frail sinners that we are, who need so much. Do you think that God is so petty as to deny us the use of our God-given senses to meditate on reminders of all that He has done for us?
#21.8: Scott Isaacs - Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:30 PM EDT
The replication of the image of Jesus Christ is an affirmation of a Christian's belief in him, not a disservice to his teachings.
#21.9: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:46 PM EDT
The replication of the image of Jesus Christ is an affirmation of a Christian's belief in him, not a disservice to his teachings.
Right, and I doubt there are many (or any) Christians who are worshiping the wood of the crucifix itself rather than what it represents.

#22: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:54 PM EDT
The Shroud of Turin is a hoax! What else is new.

#22.1: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
Oh, I thought you also believed in it. Not many would stand up and say something. There are more who would defend it.
Most will pretend they are not catholics but in so many words claim that in their equally false belief of God's omnipotence, it may be true so why question it?
Or they would pretend they are atheists but lick their wounds so profusely they would hit back against other things except what was said in the contents. The messenger then - not the message.

#22.2: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:04 PM EDT
Or they would pretend they are atheists but lick their wounds so profusely they would hit back against other things except what was said in the contents. The messenger then - not the message.
Why are you being so insulting? I was born an atheist, so was everyone. We are Taught to believe in Tooth Fairies, Santa and Boogiemen and all kinds of imaginary friends that don't exist and that we don't need. It all depends on what culture you are born into. It's fun to pretend ... when you are a small child. It's a hindrance to your ability to be rational and fogs your view of reality when you grow up and become an adult. Trick Or Treat? I have Respect for those of faith, they have all the rights of a free country to belive as they wish, Can I have the same level of respect from you? Or is that too much to ask?

#22.3: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
Oh? Atheist? I have not met one yet - a true one.

#22.4: Brad Leclerc - Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
Oh? Atheist? I have not met one yet - a true one.
You've met at least a couple on this article's comments alone :P

#22.5: Red Wolf - Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:36 PM EDT
She claims to have not met a true athiest because she can't wrap her little mind around the concept that there are people who don't believe in fairy tales.
Funny how she's using her herd of sockpuppets to try and defend herself.

#22.6: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:52 PM EDT
Oh? Atheist? I have not met one yet - a true one.
Here is the difference. Through a Christian off a cliff. If he prays all the way down for god to save him, they are a true Christian and their Faith is strong.
Through an atheist off a cliff, Watch as he reaches for every hand hold and tries to find a soft spot to land on. Who would you think has the best chance at surviving? I'll bet on the atheist every time.
You will not accept that they don't believe in what they see as a delusion, and you find it offensive so you rationalize it that they are not really atheist, that there are no such things, that you don't believe in them. Because the alternative is inconsistent with what you were taught. Do you believe in Santa anymore? You did when you where a small child didn't you. If you are a "Good Christian" then you will be honest, not that being honest or having morals requires being a christian,. Could you go back to believing in Santa again after all these years, now that you are an adult and know better. This is an atheist. It is just as absurd to ask us to believe in Super Ghost.
You are asking the impossible, but then you believe in something that is based on faith alone, so see nothing wrong with that.

#22.7: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:21 PM EDT
Hey, but she's even asking people now to comment on that great knowledge base right here. Go at it !
I would like to hear from others, too.

#22.8: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
Tedd Riggs,
You are mostly on ad hominem. That's why I would like to hear other viewpoints - not yours all the time. If you count the number of postings you made here, they don't weigh a little shrimp to me.

#22.9: Tedd Riggs - Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:50 PM EDT
My comments are argumentum ad hominem ? Interesting faulted theory that you come to. You do well at broadcasting stream of information, but a basic lack on hearing nor understanding them. Yes your sockpuppets seem to be well trained at reading basically the exact same thing. However if seems the majority of higher educated people and well rounded people do not. Count for yourself numbers.
Besides what is the relation between decapod crustaceans and postings have to do with anything ?
I have nothing to learn from this article clearly, from one or two of my friends, yes, from the rest, no
So now worries, I't not be back, I have had my file of rudeness, the only time you will see me is when more COH or User agreements are broken.

#22.10: Robert Clarita - Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:29 PM EDT
And the sockpuppet atheist's ego was touched. Ha ha ha. This is an interesting read, though I doubt I would benefit from any of these atheist's views.

#22.11: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:02 AM EDT
Robert Clarita
And the sockpuppet atheist's ego was touched. Ha ha ha. This is an interesting read, though I doubt I would benefit from any of these atheist's views.
How about American Principles? No one is trying to convert you. At least I'm not. Even if I could I wouldn't want to, I'm just trying to explain who I am and what an atheist is, we are not Satan, don't believe in that one either, and we have just as high a moral standard as any normal person. We even use forks and napkins. I just want to keep my free will.,
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
Simple I respect you and you respect me. If you do not respect me and my rights, don't expect me to respect you. Why is this so hard to understand?
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. And if you do not understand that, then this makes you a subverter of the Freedom and democracy that so many have died for so you can worship as you do now. I know you don't want that.

#22.12: Robert Clarita - Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
How about American Principles?
I don't understand clearly, you mean to say all Americans are atheist? I don't think so. You are putting your own view and represent them as American principles? That is an old and obvious trick in argument, encompassing a body to make your stand as views of many.
Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. And if you do not understand that, then this makes you a subverter of the Freedom and democracy that so many have died for so you can worship as you do now. I know you don't want that.
If I may suggest, step out from your country and you may see a bigger scope, bigger world and I'm sure you will come up with wider view as well.

#22.13: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:18 PM EDT
I don't understand clearly,
I can see that, and yet you continue to babble on regardless.
you mean to say all Americans are atheist?
That was a very dumb assertion, of course not.... read it again real slowly, if it helps to ask questions and stop making assertions and jumping to unfounded conclusions if you don't understand something. This is how we learn.
You are putting your own view and represent them as American principles?
Did you notice that that is a quote? As is this,
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
Notice that he says Religion AND Reason.
They are not the same thing.
"Faith" only breaks down and desolves when you continually try to prove it. By it's very nature "Faith" requires no proof. The Church is on a path of self destruction and it is blaming everything else for it but what is responsible, itself. Sorry, but this is why I lost all faith and left my pursuit of the priesthood.
That is an old and obvious trick in argument, encompassing a body to make your stand as views of many.
Sorry, you are blinded by faith and have no sense of the obvious so how would you know, you are wrong, I am being sincere and you spit on me for it!. I love my Country as millions do. that is a trick? I would die to protect my country, that means you and your right to believe as you wish.
If I may suggest,
No! You lost that privilege. You have no right.. you don't know me and you certainly don't even care or want to know me, so please do not be so condescending as to presume that you know or are even capable of knowing my view of the world, and quailifys you to make any suggestion to me, how arrogant! That would require the task of listening to what I say, and trying to understand my side, and you don't want to. You have already Judged me. Thank you.

#22.14: Robert Clarita - Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:52 AM EDT
I am sorry to say that you have a very narrow views for closing your mind with your own perception regarding faith and spirituality. With your kind of thinking there's no way that any believer will say to you that you would believe, unless you yourself open your mind with it.
I am just wondering since when that Thomas Jefferson become an authority of human faith to be a basis over the Bible?
I would rather believe the Bible, than a self-acclaimed American Principles representative such as yourself Mr. Hallo (no offense meant), that is my principle.

#22.15: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
With your kind of thinking there's no way that any believer will say to you that you would believe, unless you yourself open your mind with it.
duh. Of course I don't and never will believe! My mind is open to reason. You refuse to understand a simple fact. It's like me asking you to believe in the tooth fairy! Could you? Is your mind open to this, why not? Because it sounds silly to you that's why. I don't want to be rude, but religions put us in that potion trying to explain WHY WE CAN'T, CAN'T,CAN'T, CAN'T, BELIEVE IN GOD, it's not that we refuse or don't want to, It's a lovely thought, but it is just silly to me, silly, it is just a supersaturation like all others to me and other atheist. Even less valid then Bigfoot, I've seen a movie of Bigfoot and footprints, it might be real, I'm not sure, but God. I've never seen anything that makes me even SUSPECT it might be true. If a million people believe the world is flat it does not mean that it is.
I am just wondering since when that Thomas Jefferson become an authority of human faith to be a basis over the Bible?
When did you? I would rather listen to him then you, thank you.
I would rather believe the Bible, than a self-acclaimed American Principles representative such as yourself Mr. Hallo (no offense meant), that is my principle.
You are judging me as if I am just making this up on my own, America is more then you or me. It is based the rights of everyone, and that NO ONE can abridge the rights of another, if you try to change this basic principle then your are a "subversive" anti-American plain and simple. I know this is not your intention, it is jut the result of Fundamentalism.
"The principles of Jefferson are the axioms of a free society." --Abraham Lincoln
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. If you don't like this Look at any country were the do not have the freedom to worship as they wish to...Iran, China. Move there then, or stay and accept the principles of this country, where my Father died protecting your rights and mine to live our lives as we see fit, not for you or your church to persecute me for exercising mine. DO you understand now why you sound so arrogant and condescending, even saying you will pray for me is condescending. As if I need someone to pray for me. There is nothing wrong with me thank you very much, I am happy as I am. I love and feel and bleed and hope and care for others just like most people do. Love and Morals do not come from GOD. Most of us are born with the capacity to love without ever hearing of Jesus, or God. I have friends and family who love me too, and I have a very fulfilling life. With all the joys and sorrows that come with living a good life. Is this what upsets you? Do you want me to be Humble, having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance? Sorry, but life is too short and I only have one, there is no second chance and my only hope is that I leave this world better then when I came into it and that is all I ask of my children as well. I don't blame any "devil" for the wrong that peole do to each other and I don't give any credit to ghost for the good caring people of the world. Luckly they out number the bad ones, peole who are born without a moral sense, or with a poor one,
I take responsibility for my own actions and expect others to do the same. Don't blame being the devil for your own shortcomings or say that you are weak! It's your fault! Morals are innate, a moral instinct, the moral sense is as much a part of our constitution as that of feeling, seeing, or hearing. And like all abilities we are born with, some of us have them to lesser or higher degrees then others. Sadly some are even morally blind, no conscious at all. This is why we need laws, this purpose was the original impetus for religions as well. Man is a Social animal. Morals are the instinct that allows him to function within that society. Laws and religion are for those who need them. To compel those less endowed with a strong moral sense to live within society, not for those who don't need compelling.
""From the dissensions among Sects [differing denominations] themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776
Welcome to America, enjoy the freedom that it provides for you, Be happy, live and let live. I do.
Be well.

#22.16: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:56 PM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus,
The topic is not freedom of religion.
We are talking about the shroud that is touring all over the world and making money out of innocent people.

#22.17: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:27 AM EDT
The topic is not freedom of religion.
Yes it is! As much as It is a religious object and the rights of anyone to believe it is real or not "freedom of religion" most defiantly the subject!.
. Why is this any worse then the Creationist Museum making money, No one forces anyone to go there? Or any Church taking donations telling it's congregations must give a tithing if they want the blessings of the Church. They are innocent as well... most of them anyway. Freedom to not give or go or believe or give any money in your church or any others, be it by Taxes or public intimidation's, is also protected by the 1st Amendment.

#22.18: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:32 AM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus,
Can you talk about the cloth? Look into it. What can you say about it?
Hoax or not?
Freedom is different. It's a way off the topic.

#22.19: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:53 AM EDT
Freedom is different. It's a way off the topic.
Sorry but I disagree. I'm 54 years old, I was raised a Catholic, went to a Catholic school [Most Holy Redeemer, Tampa Florida]. I studied to be as priest. Got my masters in theology. I have read volumes about the shroud, I have seen specials on TV about it. It is most defiantly a fake. I don't think this because I am an atheist now, I think this because of the evidence.

#22.20: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:15 AM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus said -
"I studied to be as priest. Got my masters in theology. I have read volumes about the shroud, I have seen specials on TV about it. It is most defiantly a fake. I don't think this because I am an atheist now, I think this because of the evidence."
Okay, here we go. Here's one who has read and seen much specials about the shroud. He had studied to be a priest. And he said -
"It is most defiantly a fake."

#22.21: Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus - Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:36 AM EDT
Are you being condescending? It's hard to tell. You have a very rude way of expressing your thoughts for "A communications activist". And looking at your avatar, I couldn't help but to notice, so I just have to ask.... where is your mouth?

#22.22: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:57 AM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus,
We stick to the topic. I was presenting you as one knowledgeable or at least more aware about the shroud than most of us.
You also had the advantage of studying theology.
Therefore, it is expected that you can share us what you know about it.
Please wait for others to ask you questions.
What you have to say may be quite interesting.

#22.23: wormwood - Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:44 PM EDT
I have two points that needs clarification from Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus.
1. Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus said: "Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself."
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus even added: "I studied to be as priest. Got my masters in theology. I have read volumes about the shroud, I have seen specials on TV about it. It is most defiantly a fake. I don't think this because I am an atheist now, I think this because of the evidence."
You are obviously referring to your Catholic doctrines, its belief - and your doubts with them.
I think you have a problem with Catholicism more than you, having a problem with us.
Surely, you have doubts about Catholic teachings.
Just a piece of advice, without insisting, please have a time to look over to your thoughts if you are talking about Christians or Catholics. Don't take Christians and Catholic as one.
Why did I say so? It is because, and let me remind you too, that we learned the Holy Bible differently. You yourself can prove that Catholics would rather believe in their tradition and what their Pope and Priest said, rather than believing in the Holy Bible.
2. And since you have mentioned that YOU ARE an atheist, let me ask you these questions
a. Are you an atheist by heart, or just by word?
b. To which GROUP of Atheist are you affiliated to?
c. If you belong to a group of Atheists, "How do the Congregation of Atheists perceive the Shroud of Torin"?
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus, you said, "I take responsibility for my own actions and expect others to do the same."
Do you honestly believe that you maintain such sense of accountability? You just combined two phrases that does not complement as far as atheism is concerned, that is, taking responsibilty of one's action, and expecting others to do the same.
What if you are wrong?
How can you take responsibility of your action when you die, as far as Atheism is concerned?
What do you think atheists will do after they die? What do you think will happen to your family, friends, love ones, and those with whom you shared your thoughts and beliefs of Atheism?
Or up to now, you just expect others to do the same without any sense of reason and accountability at all?
Ain't your comments here were just said and done for the sake of arguing and debating - rhetorics? You know that Christianity is the best and do not use your Catholic experience as an excuse to think otherwise.
I hope you will learn and understand the Truth and it shall set you free.

#22.24: Jane Abao - Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:57 PM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus,
Here's your chance now.
These are a lot of questions from wormwood arising out of your shroud comments.
Your being atheist is touched, though, but these are related to how you view things.

#22.25: prompt - Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
Dan - what do you mean when you say the Shroud is a hoax? That it was a piece of art or perhaps that it only dates to the Middle Ages?

#22.26: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:44 PM EDT
Jane:
Most will pretend they are not catholics but in so many words claim that in their equally false belief of God's omnipotence, it may be true so why question it?
That's curious. You really don't believe God to be omnipotent?
Is the Devil equal in power to God? Are you a Christian or a Manicheist?
Robert:
I would rather believe the Bible, than a self-acclaimed American Principles representative such as yourself Mr. Hallo (no offense meant), that is my principle.
Out of curiosity, which of the many, many versions of the Bible do you believe in? Do you believe in all of them, or just one?

#22.27: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
Dan, I admire your fervor. I voted for many of your comments here, though I disagree (as you know) with many of your conclusions. Your points about religious freedom are spot on.
Also, I wasn't previously aware that you studied towards entering the clergy. That provides valuable context for your angry disillusionment where religion is concerned.
Salutations!

#22.28: Scott Isaacs - Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:32 PM EDT
MM:
Is the Devil equal in power to God? Are you a Christian or a Manicheist?
This is a good point. How can Satan be equally powerful as God when he couldn't even prevent the Archangel Michael from evicting him from Heaven?

#22.29: ffeineandsugar - Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:33 AM EDT
Lord knows that Dualistic heresies have plagued the church for centuries.

#23: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
From finalcut -
Do I believe the Shroud of Turin is really the burial cloth of Jesus? I don't care if it is. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God or that he came back from the dead so what this bit of fabric is really means nothing to me.
Using the Bible of all things to certify the validity of your point is like saying the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible says so. It's horrible logic and a bad defense of your position.
Hmmm... I guess then you should not be arguing with us at all. You believe in nothing. But you believe we should not be attacking that shroud of touring. It's touring and touring - and so we should care at all.

#24: wormwood - Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
Is it logical for a creator to worship his creation? Is it logical for a weaved cloth by another weaver be placed on a higher place for ignorant people to be an object of worship, paganistic style - tantamount to making God jealous?
They said heat is one of the factors that produce a blood stain image on a cloth, which is now called the Shroud of Tourin.
Deuteronomy 4:
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are. 21 The LORD was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance. 22 I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. 23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses sin, from scarlet to white as snow. It will not cause stain either literal or spirtual speaking.
Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Out of curiousity, scientists and priest could have checked the primary source of how the burial of Jesus Christ was organized - the Holy Bible. Compare the strips of linen, a napkin, used as grave clothes for Lazarus and Jesus Christ compared to the so called Shroud of Turin.
John 11: 43
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
Mark 15:
45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock.
Luke 24:
12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.
John 20:
7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.

#24.1: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:57 PM EDT
Is it logical for a creator to worship his creation? Is it logical for a weaved cloth by another weaver be placed on a higher place for ignorant people to be an object of worship, paganistic style - tantamount to making God jealous?
Your God is a jealous God? Why would he be jealous of anything or anybody, if He is Supreme?
My God (who I believe is the same as your God and all other Gods) is an all-loving God (though His love can be expressed in ways that are baffling to us). He is "One Without a Second".
Is God bound by logic? Cannot God do as He wills? The scriptures I study tell of God, though Absolute, being captivated by the sincere love of His servitors.

#25: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:00 PM EDT
Wormwood says -
People get insulted even if something said to them is true. Some people doesn't really want to hear nor ace things that hurts them. So, we can read here their defense mechanism, that is, the call for technicalities and diversionary tactics.
How can we move forward when we are still delving in the stage of denial, motivated by pride and self righteousness?
Where is the "What is?" and the "realistic thinking" on this so called rational people?
What should have been a step taken in moving forward, obviously, becomes a banana peeling left on the ground for some people to step on over and over again to knock their head and back off. And as expected, that same banana skin is someone else's pride, self righteousness, and denial.
And they would rather hit the messenger rather than the message.
It's a diversionary tactic. Argumentum ad hominem.
That's not how to argue your case if you think you are right.

#26: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:24 PM EDT
The shroud of Turin is an object of veneration since it first appeared in history in 1356 – this in spite of the fact that Bishop Henri of Troyes, in whose diocese it was first exhibited, said “it was cunningly painted as attested by the artist who had painted it.”
Walter C. McCrone of the McCrone Research Institute
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/achre4/1990/23/i03/f-pdf/f_ar00171a004.pdf?sessid=6006l3

#26.1: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:36 PM EDT
Haha! No one dares to answer this.
What do we say of silence?

#26.2: MightyMait - Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
The shroud of Turin is an object of veneration since it first appeared in history in 1356
The Mona Lisa has been venerated since it first appeared in history. It is as much a God-inspired work as any book of the Bible.

#26.3: prompt - Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:20 AM EDT
The Shroud could not have been painted, all scientific evidence has shown that.

#27: Jane Abao - Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:39 PM EDT
Here's more -
Extracts from Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin by Raymond N. Rogers -
In 1988, radiocarbon laboratories at Arizona, Cambridge, and Zurich determined the age of a sample from the Shroud of Turin. They reported that the date of the cloth's production lay between a.d. 1260 and 1390 with 95% confidence. This came as a surprise in view of the technology used to produce the cloth, its chemical composition, and the lack of vanillin in its lignin. The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample.
The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin.
Thermochimica Acta Volume 425, Issues 1-2, 20 January 2005, Pages 189-194 as reported by Science Direct

#27.1: Jane Abao - Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:48 PM EDT
"The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample."
Neither this one.
No answers. All quiet on the front.
Tedd Riggs and Red Wolf,
You may do things with your threats of anti-spamming - but the truth is there.
Instead of encouraging discussions from others you repress their chances.
I will not forever play games with you.
After all, you impress us here that you lord it over Newsvine.
I would be happy if you appear as journalists but you don't.
You have no nose for news.
You will understand what I mean when a big news appears somewhere but not here.
You should have appreciated the background that has collected in this site over the many months - but in our language both of you are tanga!

#28: wormwood - Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:26 AM EDT
Truly, Satan has no idea of what he is doing. Satan's works prove that everything he does is deceptive - he impresses with false opinions, and is a father of it. Let see one of the theories and speculations Satan provided in the minds of some people.
One scientist said that due to the changing of the physical body of Jesus Christ to the glorified one, there was radio activity that produced the blood stain on the cloth.
Christians will not believe in this speculation because this is a complete ignorance on the historical evidence found in the Holy Bible.
You see, that theory for the Shroud of Torin opposes a lot of verses in the Holy Bible. Some of the verses in the Bible says,
Deuteronomy 4:
9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. 10 Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children." 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,
Out of fire, the Lord spoke but the concerned people saw no form of any kind. But now, some people insists that the Shroud of Torin has Jesus' image. They are all ridiculous and ignorant of the Truth. Jesus Christ came to
Jesus even said, blessed those who have not seen but who believed.
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Granted without accepting that the Shroud of Torin is genuinely carrying Jesus Christ's image, then, does it mean that priests are making sure that those people who will see the said Shroud will not be blessed anymore? Otherwise, they should have kept it to themselves to give their people a chance to be called blessed.
Jesus Christ does not need his image to be exhibited everywhere, because His words are enough and it lasts, from everlasting to everlasting.
1 Peter 1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
Anyways, some people may not understand the verses because they do no want to follow the words of Jesus Christ. Some Catholics do not believe in the Holy Bible but they believe in the Shroud of Torin. I hope they will try to study the Holy Bible too.
Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

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Sorry, folks! Newsvine says "More comments" but it leads to the same page - an attempt to suppress more things from the public. You should have learned more about the "anti-spam" group.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Newspapers folding up nowadays

Wednesday, January 7, 2009

Yo! Comments to Shroud of Tourin Deleted!

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